Oh no, at it again

[darren_stranger]

Okay, for lack of anything interesting to write about lately, i might as well post something i wrote in reply to yet another student doing research on goth for an assignment.  This one was about stereotypes and misconceptions about goth and how i feel about them etc.

 

Thought it might be worth putting up, if only to see what people don't agree with.

 

i'll have a go at answering this, though it's not as straightforward as it might seem.  Hopefully this won't turn into an essay in its own right but, knowing me, it probably will.

 

It's kind of difficult because while goth, like any subculture, is a stereotype, it's one that nobody really agrees on the nature of.  What is a ridiculous misconception to one person will be precisely what goth's all about to another.  Given that, i still have my own views about what is and isn't true of goth as i know it, so i can only answer all of the following in light if that.
 
Okay then.

 

Might as well start with the two words that would probably be the subject of the most contention: Marilyn Manson.  Personally, i quite like some of Manson's music and can see a certain degree of intelligence in some things he says, but i also vehemently object to his image and music being tagged as 'goth' because, while there are some gothic elements in there, they are very much overshadowed by other influences, like industrial rock, heavy metal and nu-metal and their associated styles and attitudes.  Also, the mass media's labelling of Manson as 'goth' had led to a lot of the not-so-goth aspects of his persona (eg the more aggressive, loud or obnoxious confrontationalism and shock tactics) being taken as representative of goth.  The danger in this is that if too many people come into the goth scene thinking that's what it's all about, it runs the risk of overshadowing the more creative, intellectual and elegant aspects, detracting from the culture in much the same way that the punk scene was damaged by the violent yobbish element attracted by the media's misrepresentation of that scene as violent and yobbish, who ended up driving a lot of the more intelligent, creative people out (many into the early goth scene, ironically enough).  That's probably the main reason anything to do with Manson gets such a hostile reaction from many old-school goths, though i prefer a simple "that's fine, but it ain't goth".

The Manson issue leads into the next likely contender - Satanism.  Due to the dark, spooky aesthetic, it's often assumed that goths are into Satanism, or occultism in general.  The Marilyn Manson association has added to this, with his use of Satanic posturing as a good way to get up the noses of conservatives (particularly in the US).  But while there would be quite a few goths into Satanism and other occult practises, it's not a defining element or even a major factor.  Goth is more about using an aesthetic sense of the macabre, combined with affectations of artistic decadence and 'bohemian' lifestyles (though some would even question that).  An interest in the occult fits neatly enough into that, though i doubt too many actually make a serious pursuit of it (and most that i know are more inclined toward 'Wicca' and other neo-pagan systems to provide a spiritual angle that fits well with the bohemian gothic image and attitude).  Generally, the only people who seem to take the idea of goth as Satanic seriously are religious fundamentalists who think anything outside their own religion is evil.

 

The occult business leads naturally into the other chestnut - Vampires.  The goth - vampire connection is pretty obvious, simply as an example of the 'gothic horror' imagery used as part of the aesthetic of the scene (some would say that imagery is the major theme, even linking the subculture's lineage back to the 18th century 'gothic romance' and connections to the Decadent poets etc).  But to say goth is all about vampires in particular is a bit narrow, as even the horror element takes in all sorts of macabre stories and imagery as inspiration.  Vampires probably get the most press as the Hammer Horror vampires had good gothic looks to nick fashion ideas from, though other horror based inspirations can be seen in anything from witches (both hippyish pagans and halloween cliches) to the 'living dead' style zombie chic popular in deathrock circles (and that's before you even get into all the non-horror related influences).  As for people who actually think they're real vampires, well, i guess there's room for all sorts.

 

Another favourite is "goths are gloomy, depressed and psychologically fucked up".  Well, that's an obvious one, since the gothic aestheic is largely concerned with playing around with gloomy, dark and troubling moods and subject matter.  But that doesn't necessarily mean that the people involved in the scene are miserable and depressed - in fact most of the goths i know are having great fun playing with that imagery, and a big part of the goth ethos is about enjoying and celebrating the beauty in what's often dismissed as ugly, morbid or downright sinister.  Of course, there are also a lot of people in the scene who are depressed or have other mental health problems.  There's been a lot of discussion about why this is so, whether it's because the morbid themes touched on by the goth scene tend to make people depressed, or alternatively whether these themes attract people who are already prone to those feelings, whether it's because the scene is a haven for misfits who carry emotional baggage from rejection or mistreatment elsewhere, or even if it's the widespread recreational drug use that fucks people up.  Personally, while i think there's a little truth in all of those theories, when i look around at how many of the 'normal' (non-goth) people i know are suffering mental health problems of one kind or another, it strikes me that our society (and the human race, for that matter) is pretty fucked up in general, and perhaps goths are just more open about it because it's more socially acceptable (even fashionable) and they don't have the same pressure to pretend to be 'shiny happy people' all the time.  Personally, i think that has to be a more healthy approach, and i tend to think there's perhaps fewer messed up people in the goth scene than outside of it (insert appropriate disclaimers about what i'm used to as normal).

 

Another one is the question of goth being about 'individuality', usually in the sense of someone mocking goths for "trying to be different by all looking the same".  My opinion on this may differ from others in the scene in that i don't actually believe individuality is a key characteristic of goth, but rather that it's more about belonging.  People might be 'different' from those they grew up with, go to school or work with, but 'goth' is more about what they have in common with another set of people.  Individuality in the scene is largely restricted to finding your own style within the broader gothic theme, letting people have their own interpretation but still drawing on a repertoir of common symbols to identify with each other as part of the same tribe.  Of course this is at odds with the goth ideal of being anti-conformist and individualistic, but my take on that is that it's more about conforming within a smaller band of people to show a common front of being at odds with certain mores and values of the larger (mainstream) society.  Perhaps more simply put, my answer to the the "trying to be different by all looking the same" comment would be "i'm quite happy to be the same as them, i just want to be different to you".
 
The only other one i can think of is the sex angle.  Goth has a reputation for being sexually 'adventurous' (for want of a better word) which is not entirely unwarranted - the hedonistic, bohemian side of things tending to embrace liberal sexuality as part of pursuing a 'decadent' lifestyle, while the ideals of 'open-mindedness' and being a haven for misfits tend to make the scene more accepting of alternative sexualities in general.  Where this image does tend to get people's hackles up is when it's assumed that all goths are gay, bi, poly or kinky and that being sexually 'deviant' is some sort of prerequisite, or that goths (and goth girls in particular) are 'easy' and willing to do anything.  These annoy people both in attracting unwanted attention from sex-pests and would-be pornographers, and also from the basic assumption that goths are automatically promiscuous or even all into the same thing (a mistake in general).  It's probably best put that the goth scene is not specifically oriented towards being gay or bi or poly or transgendered or kinky or whatever, but that it can be thought of as gay/bi/poly/trans/kink-friendly.

 

One other related topic that is possibly worth a mention as a something of a touchy subject is the connection with the fetish/bdsm/kink scene.  Goth has borrowed imagery and fashion from the 'kink' scene pretty much since day one (if such a day actually existed) and there's a fairly close connection between the two scenes, with combined events and clubs being common.  Where this does become a bone of contention is when the two seem to be conflated as being the same thing - eg a goth event is by definition a 'fetish' event and vice versa, goth fashion being described exclusively in terms PVC and rubber fetishwear, and so on.  This is something of a personal bugbear of mine, not just because of the sexuality assuptions mentioned above, but because goth is a culture in its own right, with its own traditions, music, styles, ethos and aesthetics, not an extension of some other scene that only shares some of its elements.  The same could be said for the crossover with other scenes, like black metal, nu-metal and the electronic and industrial music scenes, but this is probably more about disagreements within the scene than misconceptions from outside, and probably not so elevant to your topic.

Hmmm, did turn into an essay after all.

Hope some of that is of use to you.

.

 

*sigh*

 

i really need to get a life.

Comments

[http://users.livejournal.com/raven_/]

*grin*

I'll read this @ home tonight, methinks. In a darkened room :-p

Catty loves her new palace, thank you :-) Pats to you and Elaine and Sampson and Hissy.

[usekh.livejournal.com]

A pretty reasonable one though. Only other perception that a lot of outsiders get (having been one until relatively recently) was that goths are very catty and bitchy to themselves and others. My experience is that whilst there is some of this as a whole it is more accepting than the norm.

[strang-er.livejournal.com]

Mmmm. i hear a lot about bitchiness and catty gossip in the scene, but seem to see very little of it myself. Perhaps we're both just lucky enough to move in the right circles.

[damien-wise.livejournal.com]

Naa, we're just trying to look like we've stepped out of "The Matrix".

I had something grunted at me as I was leaving Polly on Saturday night (only one or two doors down Brunswick Street, mind you). Saw a punch of street-scum bogans with their baggy jeans and strode past, ignoring their posing. It took me a while to figure-out what he'd said because he had that faux-tough accent/deep voice thing happening. I think he was sarcastically asking "Are you like Neo?!"
<insert comment about the "average" person being an idiot>

Heh

[kraant.livejournal.com]

I know I've probably said this before but I've never really understood the whole goth thing - at least as a subculture.

I mean, every time I see an essay about what goth is and then try and match it to the whole post-punk music thing that I stumbled onto which got me into the *cough* scene as opposed to just being a depressed guy wearing a fair bit of black getting dragged to clubs and pissing people off on the net for fun. And I keep drawing more parallels between those bands and the whole punk/alternative/indie/generally weird music scene than I do with what everyone else thinks goth is.

Like how New Model Army has a similar feel to a lot of Hunters and Collectors songs.

Stuff like that. That and I run into more people who like those bands in the Alt scene than I do in goth clubs.

But then hey, I'm the guy waltzing around in a leather jacket, navy blue pinstripe pants, an om amulet, and dodgy shades. So what do I know?

What'dya think, sir?

Re: Heh

[strang-er.livejournal.com]

i think the biggest problem is that the word 'goth' gets used to describe both a general arty alternative scene and a specific part of that that uses the more literally 'gothic' (ie macabre, spooky etc) imagery as its inspiration and focus. i also tend to use it in two ways like that, to the point of sometimes referring to 'goth' as a subset of 'goth' (eg, goth being a combination of goth, punk, beatnik, hippy, metal, industrial, romantic, expressionist, dada, etc etc influences), where one means the scene in general the other a speific style within it.

Many things (like the NMA and Hunters, or even Manson for that matter) fit well in one but not the other.

When i first heard the term explained in the 80s, it seemed the best fit for the arty-farty end of that "punk/alternative/indie/generally weird music scene" i was into. These days i sometimes prefer the idea of identifying with a nebulous un-named arty-farty alternative thing rather than something as specific as 'goth', but then i think it's part of human nature to want to give a name to something to get the sense of belonging.

Probably the main reason so many devote a lot of time to the goth scene but are loathe to call themselves goths.

[p-cat.livejournal.com]

*stands on chair and applauds loudly*

Hear, hear!