more gothstuff

[darren_stranger]

Morgan303's 'I am not a goth' post got me thinking last night and this morning, and i've decided to repost my reply here for future reference, as it contains a couple of relevant thoughts to do with where i'm at now, subculturally speaking.

What she wrote sounds a lot like thoughts i've had from time to time, to the effect that while i'm still into more or less the same things i was ten or fifteen years ago, things that at the time i considered 'goth' to be the best generic word to describe, that these things no longer correspond to what the word seems to mean today.  I still waver between feelings of "well, if that's what goth means now, then i'm not part of it" and an obstinant "sorry, but what the fuck has that got to do with goth?".  Most of the time i tend to lean towards the latter, even if i lay even less claim to the term myself than i have in the past.

It's funny, i never really understood the Not-a-Goth thing - it always seemed odd for people to be refusing to be labelled with a word while going out of their way to conform to the image in every other way possible.  While i'm sure some were just having a laugh, there did also seem to be a trend of genuine resistance to the word (i suspect maybe it was a sort of "yes, we're all individuals!" denial, at best guess).  For myself, while i was quite happy to admit to conscious subcultural conformism, i did usually edge uncomfortably around describing myself as 'a goth', though recently i've realised that was probably more to do with not really looking the part than anything else.  On the other hand, i did always think the idea of describing someone as 'a goth' sounded somehow odd, as opposed to describing a thing or idea as 'gothic'.

That's something else i'm leaning more towards now - to use 'goth' or, better still, 'gothic' as an adjective to describe a style, mood, idea, look etc, and to avoid getting into the question of whether someone is 'a goth' or not (i've always been somewhat uneasy about that, as it lends itself to a sort of exclusivist criteria of who does or doesn't 'make the grade' to qualify for the title).  That way, i can happily argue about whether this, that or the other could be described as gothic without it being necessary to question or undermine someone else's self-image or subcultural identification.

The other good thing about that, which i've only just realised this morning, is that it's also a lot more comfortable at this stage of life for me to consider 'goth' as one of my interests and tastes, rather than a tag for who i am.  Of course, i still have a social need to identify with other people and signify that in how i dress, where i go, what i do etc, but i've just noticed i no longer feel the same need to see myself as 'a goth', 'a punk' etc, but rather just a guy who happens to have a certain range of tastes, interests and attitudes, and likes to associate with likeminded people.  That's always been the case, more or less, but what's different is that i no longer need to match all that up against a name for what i am.  (Took me long enough).

And of course, that doesn't make me any less passionate about these things either - as evidenced by the amount of time i've spent thinking about and writing this reply (not to mention violating my no el-jay in worktime rule - mustn't let that slide).

Oh, and thanks to morgan303 for putting a finger on just what it is about Emily Strange. I have to admit that in recent years i've actually come to have an appreciation for things like the Living Dead Dolls etc, a side effect of a newfound taste for the more cartoonish, b-grade or trashy kitsch side of things, but something's always bugged me about Emily.  Now i know what it is - that beyond all the cute cats and Wednesday Addams creepiness, the character is just an obnoxious, rude little brat, like a snotty Kelly Osbourne wannabe in black.  That, and a particularly contrived and fake version of the "i myself am dark and unusual" goth posturing.  Somehow i think the line between taking the piss out of yourself and becoming an unwitting joke lies somewhere thereabouts.

PS - i think i've realised another reason for the Not-a-Goth thing - that having cliched 'goth' tastes seems a lot less cliched if you don't admit to tagging yourself as goth.

"I'm not a goth, but i do like coffins, bats, red velvet, black lace, Victorian dresses, romantic poets, vampire novels, graveyards, ruined abbeys, dark swirly music and candles" - vs - "I'm a goth: i like coffins, bats, red velvet, black lace, Victorian dresses, romantic poets, vampire novels, graveyards, ruined abbeys, dark swirly music and candles".

Don't know why i didn't see that before.

Comments

[gothsuck.livejournal.com]

HAHA I always thought that Emily Strange products were designed for children - but I found out recently I was wrong. That marketing plan failed on me thats for sure - let alone I think she is BORING & a bit plain Jane in the looks dept.

As for Goth. I consider Goth to be a celebration of life. We & us like minded souls - have usually seen so much death & are passifists & I like to remind myself with my dark music & habits that I AM ALIVE & I am gonna enjoy every fuckin minute of it! I consider it to be more like a opposite representation.

But really I just like BLACK! HAHAH

And anyone that denies they are a Goth just make me laugh & laugh. Cant be bothered with denial. Hi my name is Tina. END OF STORY label away I really dont give a shit.
:)

[strang-er.livejournal.com]

I always took the Emily stuff as a kids' thing, that adults took on in that kiddie-chic way (like wearing Hello Kitty or Sesame Street gear). I sort of don't mind that idea in itself (though it is getting a bit overdone lately) but it's Emily herself that shits me, for the above reasons.

I've never really bothered with the denial either - I Yam What I Yam as Popeye the Sailor would say, and if that happens to be a dyed-black-in-the-wool goth cliche, then so be it. By the same token, if that's not what the thing i yam is called anymore, then so be that too. (Though it is helpful as a way to find other people that like similar shit).

And yeah, you've gotta live life. Whether that means moping about in black for fun, following a footy team, climbing a mountain or spanking someone's arse in a rubber wetsuit, as long as it still makes you feel alive that's what counts, eh?

[andricongirl.livejournal.com]

i like the emily strange bone kitty, but as a character i dont thinks shes that great.. though I would like to grab a share of that market one days and sell crap to people ;p

[strang-er.livejournal.com]

"Oh, i'm so sick of seeing all these kiddies swanning about thinking they're sooo individual, all with the exact same JelliBat gear. What ever happened to originality? I remember when we used to create our own unique mix out a whole bunch of different brands like Emily, Lip Service and Dangerfield. And we'd have to actually go out and buy our stuff *ourselves* in actual shops - sometime two or three different shops just to get one outfit - not just order them online like these bloody JelliMoulds. Bah, kids these days."

[andricongirl.livejournal.com]

hehe :]

[patchworkkid.livejournal.com]

It's a kick in the pants. If we want a scene we have to help build one, just like we did way back when. Stasis is death. (<-- ObGoth)

[strang-er.livejournal.com]

For what it's worth, a lot of what i knew and loved in goth is still out there - though not necessarily to be found in the same places. The psychobilly scene for one has the energy and excitement i liked in punk mixed with the style and glamour of goth (just in a slightly different flavour). And things like Kiss Kiss Bang Bang are keeping the early-80s mode of goth alive and fresh (at least on a stylistic level). Perhaps the more classic, poetry-loving, intellectual side of things that Sarah mentioned could do with a shot in the arm, though that's probably something better explored outside of noisy nightclubs (i get most of that interaction via LJ).

I should note that the "that's not what it seems to mean today" comments i mentioned were actually made a couple of years back, in Heresy days. Since then i've gone out of my way to avoid 'mainstream goth' with reasonable success, though occasionally coming into contact with it will still make me feel like that again (eg a certain hissy fit after a combined-floor night at Dream, though that was before KKBB and it really did feel like my version of goth was gone and that everything was tending back to Lowest Common Denominator). If anything, it's more a case that there are so many mututally exclusive versions of what 'goth' means that the term is close to meaningless.

Still, i guess the main point of my post was the realisation that i'm now much less dependant on that term to define who i am. Which is good.

[viscera.livejournal.com]

I do think there's some sort of renaissance slowly happening now.

There's KKBB, where people can appreciate the music, and seem to be getting back into the DIY apect I miss. Which i've also noticed at work.... less PVC is selling and the vintage, velvet, lace, possibly tattered, items are moving better than have well... since Heresy really.

I know of a couple of gothy book clubs happening recently. A bit on the twee side, but it's better than nothing. There was Nocturnal Instincts, there's something resembling a live goth music scene, and more on the band scale than lately [IMHO].

Hell, at the risk of blatant advertising, there's even radio now. It's still mixed, but I can guarantee no Manson or nu-metal crossovers, or Prodigy. And even if you can't listen at godawful hours, requests are always appreciated. :P

Having read both Morgan's post and this one, yeah... I do miss what it meant and I doubt these circles will ever regain it. But that's evolution baby, and watching the global shifts in these areas, from the drugs to the music changes, the dress changes, and with pretty much everyone on a computer able to access new styles of clothing, boots, and goth porn, it's no wonder it exploded.

The person in the first few comments on Morgan's post made an excellent point regarding subcultures, if you can find the link.

If anything, it's more a case that there are so many mututally exclusive versions of what 'goth' means that the term is close to meaningless.


Couldn't agree more, actually.

Anyhow, good post. Some good food for thought. :)

[strang-er.livejournal.com]

It is confusing when you have a few completely different subcultures all using the same name, though as long as i can find and enjoy the version i like, that's what i care most about (though little things do sometimes get up my pedantic nose, like the number of times 'goth' has been mentioned in relation to Nine Inch Nails lately).

I guess more than anything, one thing i do miss is being able to see someone on the street and know instantly that they are a kindred spirit of sorts, just by the way they dress and look. Nowdays it's just as likely we have nothing particular in common, which is a pity as it feels like losing a sort of connection. (Having kindred spirits is still important to me, even if the name they go by isn't).

But realising that i don't need to be able to name the sort of person i am is an important development, if only to avoid the "nuthin' but a nuthin'*" feeling i'll sometimes slip into at times when it has seemed the idea i most identified with means something else now.

(*At least a babybat is something, but you're not a thing at all!)

[viscera.livejournal.com]

I find the merging of subcultures a blessing and a curse. Having never felt comfortable in any one 'scene' as such it's been good to be able to interact on more levels than usual [oooh aren't I deep - hopefully you get what I mean here], but at the same time i'd rather not have to hear numetal to get it.

I don't know. There's only a few people i've found that I feel I connect with on anything other than particular and connected levels, which a different conversation entirely and I should stop typing aloud. :P

And I get what you mean about identifying, I think - as I was saying above - ...perhaps some new subcultural element needs to emerge, some bastard hyrid that doesn't come with a price-tag and a collectable set of stereotypes.

[belegdel.livejournal.com]

Sort of a side note, this, but the other day I spent an hour or two pondering similar thoughts and in the end I thought I'd pretty much nailed it all down, as least as far as my own attitudes were concerned.

Then two days later, whilst talking to the convenor for some work training before the other poeple show up, he comes out with the "so what's with the whole wearing black thing?" question.

"Aha!" I thought, "boy do I have a stylish and well thought out response for you!"
At that point all of my considered musings on the subject fell out of my head with a wet splat and what came out of my mouth was half coherent rambling and trivialisation. Even a cliche or two.

I think my brain and my mouth are having some kind of industrial dispute.

[strang-er.livejournal.com]

If someone asked "what's with this goth thing?", i could probably have all manner of stylish replies (probably touching on everything from punk to the Romantics to fin-de-siecle Paris to Andy Warhol's Factory crowd) but unless the g-word has already raised it's head, i'd be loathe to introduce it with anyone unfamiliar with the scene.

I guess my non-denial doesn't extend to volunteering the affiliation and then having to explain and correct misconceptions, especially with certain people who would look on it mockingly no matter how i explained it.

[djpoisondwarf.livejournal.com]

I used to call myself a Goff when i was 16-21 but i dont like the word anymore it leaves a sour taste in my mouth....Anyway i am more of a Deathrocker taste wise.

[strang-er.livejournal.com]

I'm finding it much simpler just to think of myself as a guy who likes (*really* likes) goth and punk and psychobilly and deathrock and martial arts and fantasy and sci-fi etc etc, rather than thinking i am 'a goth', 'a punk', 'a deathrocker', 'a martial artist' etc. Of course i am all these things, but none of them encompass everything that i am, which i've only just realised is what the "i'm a.." tends to do.

This is a new train of thought for me, so i haven't got it eactly right in words yet, but hopefully it makes sense.

[morgan303.livejournal.com]

Hey! Your comments were read, much appreciated, and then not answered by me yesterday due to excessive tiredness, and this is still the excuse I'm using to skive off giving an intelligent answer now.:)
I do agree with you here; as well as the whole goth thing tag, I do or have in the past also answered to a number of other tags including hippy, artist, activist, musician and horsewoman. I'm confident enough in the complexity of my own identity (as are you) to not mind tags too much (as I stated in the original post)- I think it's all a matter of context. A human being (at least one worth knowing!) is way too complex to sum up by being any one thing. So I'm happy to be a "whatever" for the sake of convenience so long as it's basically accurate.
:)

[spark-au.livejournal.com]

I very loosely use the term Notagoth, but in a 'I'm a recovering goth' sentiment (the term itself is really only familiar to other goth associated people)- I'm familiar with the music, fashion, culture, humour, but 'goth' isn't something where I'd consider my mental landscape to be at, nor do I have anywhere near as strong a sense of identity with it.


I don't know what changed, per se, but there was a point when defining yourself as a goth seemed to indicate a specific focus on the culture, and that's not a place I've ever really been at.

[kits-the-dm.livejournal.com]

Maybe its just a lack of panache?

[trayce.livejournal.com]

I'm with you, acksherly - I seem to have fallen in step with "ver scene" over the years but I never thought I dressed the part or liked much of the required music or, um, anything.

Is there a "scene" for "I had a misspent adulthood hanging out at the Prince drinking beer and watching Pavement"? =)

[i-beloved.livejournal.com]

I have been labelled "gothic" by friends who are not that way inclined but I haven't defined myself as anything apart from a person who hates fashion trends (including gothic ones) and likes some gothic things and just doesn't like some of what is considered normal to society. I am certainly not in denial of the subculture I prefer to be involved in, but I also am not going to get into the trap of being "gothlier than thou" and being competitive to keep up appearances and status. There's always the crowd each few years who are the "most goth". I still remember the lunchbox brigade of the late 90s and how they were the beautiful people and more goth than anyone else, now it's moved on to another group and I just roll my eyes at that (that comes from getting older and turning into a youth-bashing grump, I guess).

I realise that what was once "goth" to me is no longer "goth" to most. As a subculture, what I loved and still now enjoy just doesn't exist much under that label. I'm not going to fight to protect it, it's not MY scene, mores the pity :) I just like going to goth clubs, I like gothic music of varying kinds, gothic type clothing, black things, spooky things, fluffy kitty things but I don't care to be noticed like I used to. Hmm.. perhaps I am babbling, nothing new here.

[strang-er.livejournal.com]

I guess that's where i'm finding myself - that i like gothic music, clothes etc, as well as punk, rockabilly and other styles, but if i listen to the music or wear the clothes or go to the places it's because i *like* that stuff, not so much because i *am* it (if that makes sense). I guess it's the next stage of being the sum of the values, tastes, interests, beliefs etc that i have, rather than the sum of the labels i see myself fitting under.

Same stuff, slightly different outlook, but it is something new for me.

Then again, that could just be this week. :)